I mentioned here the other day that Dunkirk, impressive in his allowance win on Thursday and being very much hyped as a Kentucky Derby contender, still has zero graded earnings. And therefore, he would have to run at least 1st or 2nd in the Florida Derby in order to have enough graded earnings to draw into the Derby.

I was under that impression because i know that was the case with Big Brown last year, who arrived at the Florida Derby in the same zero-graded-earnings boat as Dunkirk.

But apparently, the situation is even worse for Dunkirk than i originally thought. I was unaware that the Florida Derby, which offered a $1 million purse last year, has had it's purse restructured and is down to $750,000 this year. So while a win would get Dunkirk into the Derby, a second-place finish (and it's $150,000 worth of graded earnings) might not.

So basically, unless Dunkirk wins the Florida Derby, he'll be on the bubble and would likely have to run back in another race in order to gain some more earnings. That would mean running back either 2 weeks after the Florida Derby, then wheeling back in the Derby three weeks hence. Either that, or running back 3 weeks after the Florida Derby, and then wheeling back in the Derby two weeks later.

So unless Dunkirk wins the Florida Derby, things get pretty dicey after that.

DC heres one option if he runs first or second in the florida derby..lets say he does run second the only viable race would be at keeneland april 18 th.the gr-2 coolmore stakes at 1 1/16th.purse $300,000..but its poly track,more questions and concerns arise.....im still waiting to see what trainer david fawkes does with big drama at this point he may train him up to the florida derby...waiting....

Yes, the Lexington would be the 3 weeks/2 weeks option.

The 2 weeks/3 weeks option would be the Blue Grass or Arkansas Derby, but those would seem less likely.

derby trial is graded this yr if he had to use it i doubt he would just saying.

Dropping the purse for the Florida Derby does make it tough for him. Lets see, if they enter him 2 weeks prior to that race inthe Tampa Bay Derby 1mile & 1/16th. ( against Free Country and Company). He can come back, off a 2weeks rest and run inthe Florida Derby or 3 weeks rest and ship to New York for the Wood Memorial.(which both races are $750,000.) Tampa's is for $300,000. Options and they have to make up their minds quick due to entry cut offs. What do you guys think?

i think they run in the fla derby and then the lexington if they need it

I just think that you have to roll the dice and hope for a win in the florida derby..If not then wait for the preakness

IS THERE any chance were all getting a little carried away with this horse--perhaps-i sure think so granted he did what was asked of him in that allowance at gulf...but really i kind of thought the splits were poor i think there were several 26 second quarters.........

I do believe Dunkirk is being way over-hyped, yes. He looks like a very nice horse, but the comparisons to Big Brown last year are pretty silly. About all the have in common are the timing of their schedules. That doesn't mean they're similar animals.

Dunkirk has plenty to prove. This is a Colt with a super Bloodline. Sire: Unbridled's Song by Unbridled by Fappiano. I can go on, catch up guys, lets go to the Dam's side. Secret Status who just happens to be the 2002 Kentucky Oaks WINNER and Mother Goose WINNER and the Florida Oaks WINNER just to name a few. Sired by none other than A.P.Indy by Seattle Slew. This is what Horse Racing is all about Bloodline - Breeding Champions and this one no dout has it written all over him. Oh, and failed to mention that he's a half Brother to The Dubia and American Champ winner of the Breeder's Cup Juvenile Midshipman. My hype is that this Colt has Champion written all him, due his Bloodline which is why he sold for 3.7 million dollars and he's done nothing wroung but over come adversity in his 2 races. I know if they were to retire this Colt right now with just those 2 races, which they won't but if they did, he would bring in top dollar as a Sire. I'll be sticking with my Champ until he proves me wroung. See you guys inthe Breeder's Cup Classic.

Originally Posted by gambler911

IS THERE any chance were all getting a little carried away with this horse--perhaps-i sure think so granted he did what was asked of him in that allowance at gulf...but really i kind of thought the splits were poor i think there were several 26 second quarters.........

Any chance? I can't wait to bet against him when he goes off at even-money in the FL Derby. His next race should really be the make or break. If he doesn't win, however, he may have to run again before the derby, which I believe will severely compromise his chances.

However, I did say this before the last race too when he took my money

CINFRONT........you bring many valid points on this horses breeding on both sides yes he is impeccably bred and cost $3,700,000.00 but guess what and dont ever forget this.....................they still have to run the race..........hence horses like funny cide a n.y. bred gelding you could have got him at a flea market...i heard he is pulling a milk wagon up at saratoga..........that gelding had "THE KENTUCKY BLUE BLOODS" rolling over in there graves.......always remember another thing in this game anytime we get to see a quality 3 year old the greedy owners basically spit in our faces as we never get to see them run as they mature 4-5 year olds...remember when there were TRUE HANDICAP RACES IN this game...........wheres bold forbes.....

Originally Posted by gambler911

always remember another thing in this game anytime we get to see a quality 3 year old the greedy owners basically spit in our faces as we never get to see them run as they mature 4-5 year olds...remember when there were TRUE HANDICAP RACES IN this game...........wheres bold forbes.....

This has been my #1 pet peave in horse racing. There should be a piece of legislature passed regarding the retirement of completely sound horses. People need to learn from Curlin's owners. Look at what that one year return did for the sport. I'm thrilled to see Zenyatta making an '09 return as well (granted not the same as Curlin returning as she is a female).

Flyin Late We Both Agree.........the Damn Money For The Breeding Has Killed Us True Avid Horse Players..i Used To Love To See Good Handicap Races Where Some Were Getting 10--16 Lbs. Off Against A Big Horse.....and The Morons Can Never Figure Out Why They Cant Attract A Younger Generation To This Game............pure Greed..is The Way To Sum It Up.....when Cigar And Bailey Were Making There U.s. Tour Stealing Checks It Was Kind Of Pitiful As Many Of Todays Modern Horseman Juice And Needle Men Wouldnt Attempt To Run Against Him.......not Knocking Cigar He Did His Part......good Luck Today...

Originally Posted by gambler911

Flyin Late We Both Agree.........the Damn Money For The Breeding Has Killed Us True Avid Horse Players..i Used To Love To See Good Handicap Races Where Some Were Getting 10--16 Lbs. Off Against A Big Horse.....and The Morons Can Never Figure Out Why They Cant Attract A Younger Generation To This Game............pure Greed..is The Way To Sum It Up.....when Cigar And Bailey Were Making There U.s. Tour Stealing Checks It Was Kind Of Pitiful As Many Of Todays Modern Horseman Juice And Needle Men Wouldnt Attempt To Run Against Him.......not Knocking Cigar He Did His Part......good Luck Today...

I'm part of the dying generation as I am only 23. As I look at the way the game is now, I wonder how it is going to survive when I'm 50. The only horseman I see at my age (atleast in IL) are born into it. Had my father not been an avid horseplayer for 30 years, I wouldn't be posting on this forum as we speak. I have managed to turn a few of my friends in to horse racing fans, but for the most part was unsuccessful as there is nothing to appeal to a younger crowd. A major complaint that a couple of my friends had regarded not having a horse to follow for long periods of time. Outside of following a derby trail, most successful horses fall off the map after that year. My friends and I attend the derby each year as well as all of our local big races (IL Derby, Arlington Million, etc), but our age group is almost non-existant (except at the KY Derby).

As soon as I finish law school I plan to invest in a couple of horses, but where will the game even be at this point?

Im 57 And My Racing Career Started At The Worst Place Imaginable,at 15 Years Old My Buddies And I Started Going And Betting Trotters At Liberty-bell Park In Northeast Philly.....i Was Reading A Damn Trotter Program Instead Of Doing My Real Homework.....then At The Ripe Age Of 17 I Went To Garden State Park In Jersey And Saw My First Live Thourobreed Race..never Looked At A Trotter Again Except At Maywood Pk. Were Your From..i Was At Sportsman-hawthorne And Arlington After The Fire...was Betting In Tents....casinos Have Things Like Comps-meals-shows Etc.racing Doesent Offer The Fans Anything But A Headache Half The Time.lol..getting In Action In A Bit ..have To Get Gulfstream Changes And Scratches Talk To You Later...

The game will always survive. You have the Class game and then there's the Claimers. There's money to be made in either one. To say it's greed "Greed is in the eye of the Beholder". What makes sence to you is insanity to another. Cigar couldn't produce offsprings so they ran him till 9yrs old like a cheap claimer. Thank god they finally said lets be humain and turn him out. Or would you rather have seen him run till 12yrs old or till he dropped, just so that you could get a good bet ? That's not the name of the game guys Breeding is. You get a nice Horse win some key races, and if he or she dosen't develop any problems you bring them back to win a few more key races ( to improve their value @ stud ) then turn then out to stud. It's a Bussiness and we have the opportunity to be apart of it by following these Horses and Betting on them. Simple as that. Gulf Sat. ( This Ones For Phil, Beethoven, Theregoesjojo---Triple Box)-------Santa Anita Sat. ( Ventana, The Pamplemousse, Unbridled Roman----Triple Box) Good Luck Gentleman.

Originally Posted by cinfront

Cigar couldn't produce offsprings so they ran him till 9yrs old like a cheap claimer. Thank god they finally said lets be humain and turn him out. Or would you rather have seen him run till 12yrs old or till he dropped, just so that you could get a good bet ? That's not the name of the game guys Breeding is.

Your taking what we said to a whole new extreme. We were simply stated that it would be nice for the triple crown race winners, as well as competitive horses from these races, stick around and race at 4 and 5 to face a new group of older horses. Not once did one of us say horses shouldn't retire til they can barely beat 20 claimers at an elderly age. We're simply asking for 1-2 more years out of horses so we can see what they do against older. Had Big Brown not been injured, how great for the sport would the Big Brown vs Curlin match up have been?

Cinfront---------what Planet Do You Really Live On Come On You Have To Be Real Here......were Talking About Champion 3 Year Olds That Win Triple Crown Races And Are Never Seen From Again Except In A Breeding Shed Because The Greedy Owners Get $30-60 Million Dollars Is That Not Greed ?? Does That Not Rob Us From Seeing Champions Mature And Run At Age 4-5-6 There Best Years......i Generally For The Record Dont Bet Horses When They Reach Age 7 Up....when I See "pig-trainers" At Cheap Circuits Like Beulah-turf Paradise-penn National Its Criminal...if You Watched Cigars Races They Looked Like Workouts-bailey Just Jogged That Horse Around Oval After Oval Stealing Checks...you Definitely Have Me Pegged Wrong As Far As Betting Old Cheap Claimers....lets Run Our Champions Like Curlin Did..when I First Got On This Site 2-3 Months Ago I Asked Horse Players On Here To Explain Why Every Animal Around This Country Is On Lasix...first Timers Who Have Never Run A Race All On Lasix..its A Cover /screen Not The Diuretic That Were Led To Believe..new York Racing Held Out The Longest Not Allowing Half The Medications These Super-trainers Use..steroids Needle And Juice Men..famed Horseman Jack Vanberg Testified In Front Of Congress And Stated Its "chemical-warfare " On Tracks...

Did cinfront say that Dunkirk is a half-brother to Midshipman? They're the same age, for crying out loud.

Discreet Cat can I ask You two questions, and please don't cry out loud. lol And of course they are the same age. Is Unbridle's Song the Sire of Midshipman? And if Unbridle's Song is also the Sire of Dunkirk what relation would they be to each other? Cause if that doesn't make them half brothers I'm confused.

Originally Posted by cinfront

Discreet Cat can I ask You two questions, and please don't cry out loud. lol And of course they are the same age. Is Unbridle's Song the Sire of Midshipman? And if Unbridle's Song is also the Sire of Dunkirk what relation would they be to each other? Cause if that doesn't make them half brothers I'm confused.

If simply having the same sire made horses half-brothers I could make an arguement for a horse everyday as being "A half brother to midshipman" lol

You know, technically, Cinfront is correct. And quite honestly, i never even considered that aspect of it.

Generally speaking though, horses are only considered siblings if they come from the same mother. I thought that's what you were getting at, and i stand corrected.

DC you are the man and I respect everyones opinion here, but I must say you were scaring me there for a while. Flyin Late When you bet the Ponies you're telling me that you don't look at a horses breeding? Only their past performance. Just a question don't take it personnel. For instance, a Colt running today 1st time over the lawn and his dirt races (let say 2) are just ok. On his Sire side he has Cozzeen and Dam side Dynaformer. My question to you is that this is not something you would factor in your decision when you're betting? Cause if you were asking me this question I'll be telling you I'll be all over this puppy,like Gambler911 he'd be in my exactas, doubles, pick3's and even flat Win Bet especially at odds. Just curious. Oh by the way, there's a 3yr old Filly called Mycrispycream (Santa Anita), who I betted 1st time out, Sired by Distorted Humor (top money earner Sire ) and Dam's Sire by A.P.Indy. They ran her onthe grass and can't wait to see what she'll do on dirt in this case the poly. We should get very nice odds next time out. Put her on your watch list. Good Luck Guys

Originally Posted by cinfront

DC you are the man and I respect everyones opinion here, but I must say you were scaring me there for a while. Flyin Late When you bet the Ponies you're telling me that you don't look at a horses breeding? Only their past performance. Just a question don't take it personnel. For instance, a Colt running today 1st time over the lawn and his dirt races (let say 2) are just ok. On his Sire side he has Cozzeen and Dam side Dynaformer. My question to you is that this is not something you would factor in your decision when you're betting? Cause if you were asking me this question I'll be telling you I'll be all over this puppy,like Gambler911 he'd be in my exactas, doubles, pick3's and even flat Win Bet especially at odds. Just curious. Oh by the way, there's a 3yr old Filly called Mycrispycream (Santa Anita), who I betted 1st time out, Sired by Distorted Humor (top money earner Sire ) and Dam's Sire by A.P.Indy. They ran her onthe grass and can't wait to see what she'll do on dirt in this case the poly. We should get very nice odds next time out. Put her on your watch list. Good Luck Guys

Breeding is something I take in to consideration under two circumstances.
1) Maiden races. Breeding plays its predominant role here (atleast for me). Factoring in distance, surface, early win rate, maturity, etc.
2) When a horse is making a change from the norm. For example a dirt horse who has raced 6 times, but only over the dirt and tries the turf or when a horse is sprinting and stretches out for the first time.
These are things I look for, namely the sire, but to say that all horses with the same sire are half brothers is irrelevant (although politically correct). You would never hear this term used by any professional handicapper or by any horse related broadcast.
Thanks for the tip on Mycrispycream, added to my stable